Comments on: Aviation and Climate Change http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/ DFs from The Woodcraft Folk Fri, 03 Feb 2012 11:21:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: the same anonymous commenter http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-5096 the same anonymous commenter Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:24:38 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-5096 Yes I agree it is delightfully easy to insult and flame from behind my anonymity :-p - actually I was largely just amused by the prospect of how abusive I could be on the internet, writing 'F**k you Mohan!' which was the climactic sentence, (and did actually represent my gut reaction - as I basically read Mo's comment as 'F**k you, rest of the world!' akin to "please stop stabbing me repeatedly in the face?"...."but I like stabbing people in the face!") (but it got cut out :-( ) and then thought I should add some cushioning first/ make it sound semi-productive/ reasoned. Big props to actually productive discussions, and maybe I wasn't entirely unproductive by causing this convo, or at the very least it amused me to write at the time :-D xxx Yes I agree it is delightfully easy to insult and flame from behind my anonymity :-p – actually I was largely just amused by the prospect of how abusive I could be on the internet, writing ‘F**k you Mohan!’ which was the climactic sentence, (and did actually represent my gut reaction – as I basically read Mo’s comment as ‘F**k you, rest of the world!’ akin to “please stop stabbing me repeatedly in the face?”….”but I like stabbing people in the face!”) (but it got cut out :-( ) and then thought I should add some cushioning first/ make it sound semi-productive/ reasoned. Big props to actually productive discussions, and maybe I wasn’t entirely unproductive by causing this convo, or at the very least it amused me to write at the time :-D xxx

]]> By: sam http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-4775 sam Mon, 03 May 2010 11:13:35 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-4775 we should slow our lives down, improve shipping links and boats and go by sea. that way, long holidays to faraway lands become truly special and you spend more time travelling(which is half the fun of going on holiday not using planes anyway), and emit a hugely smaller amount of CCGs. prices can be subsidised by taxing airlines and the rich, and everyone can have an amazing holiday. we should slow our lives down, improve shipping links and boats and go by sea. that way, long holidays to faraway lands become truly special and you spend more time travelling(which is half the fun of going on holiday not using planes anyway), and emit a hugely smaller amount of CCGs.
prices can be subsidised by taxing airlines and the rich, and everyone can have an amazing holiday.

]]> By: David http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-4773 David Sun, 02 May 2010 22:15:25 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-4773 Cleaner, faster, bigger? Didnt the article say it will be increasingly difficult to improve the environmental performance of aircraft. Going faster is not very efficient the Concorde used 20% more fuel to fly 30% of the passengers of a 747, 2.4 times as fast. Overall it uses 4 times as much fuel to fly less than 4 times as fast. With regards to bigger aircraft, aircraft are operationally limited to being no more than 80m long and 80m wide. A few examples below: Airbus A380: Width 79.8m Airbus A340-600: Length 75.3m Boeing 777-300: Length 73.9m Boeing 747-8 (Currently in development): 76.3m How you then expect aircraft to get much bigger without having to rebuild all of the world's airports I do not know. Cleaner, faster, bigger? Didnt the article say it will be increasingly difficult to improve the environmental performance of aircraft. Going faster is not very efficient the Concorde used 20% more fuel to fly 30% of the passengers of a 747, 2.4 times as fast. Overall it uses 4 times as much fuel to fly less than 4 times as fast.

With regards to bigger aircraft, aircraft are operationally limited to being no more than 80m long and 80m wide. A few examples below:

Airbus A380: Width 79.8m
Airbus A340-600: Length 75.3m
Boeing 777-300: Length 73.9m
Boeing 747-8 (Currently in development): 76.3m

How you then expect aircraft to get much bigger without having to rebuild all of the world’s airports I do not know.

]]> By: Mo http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-4772 Mo Sun, 02 May 2010 21:12:03 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-4772 It occurs to me i always seem to play devils advocate. Here i argue on the side of the less green things and on other sites i argue for the green plight... It occurs to me i always seem to play devils advocate. Here i argue on the side of the less green things and on other sites i argue for the green plight…

]]> By: Mo http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-4771 Mo Sun, 02 May 2010 21:10:17 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-4771 Nah not a bomb- a generator. We could put nuclear reactors everywhere! In cars, in ships, under our homes and our cities! Electricity everywhere! (Before anyone starts, this was humourous) It's not the flying per se, but the destination that matters. Short haul flights are stupid, even around Europe. There are viable alternatives for cleaner travel but flight is the only way to go long haul. Yes we live with the world but we're also an intelligent species with the power to invent and wield technology. The power of flight, the realm of the birds within our grasp. To travel so far and so fast was so outlandish that our ancestors could not even dream it. But here we are, and the world is our oyster. Billions of people connected by land, sea and air networks. As a species, technology is our thing, our survival ensured. Knowledge and science and technology must be furthered and improved, not squashed. Yes, today's planes are far from perfect, but they'll get better. Cleaner, faster, bigger. We must also respect and protect the natural environment and resources. We must use our technology responsibly but without fear, otherwise we might as well go back to the caves and bash our brains in with rocks. Nah not a bomb- a generator. We could put nuclear reactors everywhere! In cars, in ships, under our homes and our cities! Electricity everywhere! (Before anyone starts, this was humourous)

It’s not the flying per se, but the destination that matters. Short haul flights are stupid, even around Europe. There are viable alternatives for cleaner travel but flight is the only way to go long haul.

Yes we live with the world but we’re also an intelligent species with the power to invent and wield technology. The power of flight, the realm of the birds within our grasp. To travel so far and so fast was so outlandish that our ancestors could not even dream it. But here we are, and the world is our oyster. Billions of people connected by land, sea and air networks. As a species, technology is our thing, our survival ensured. Knowledge and science and technology must be furthered and improved, not squashed. Yes, today’s planes are far from perfect, but they’ll get better. Cleaner, faster, bigger.

We must also respect and protect the natural environment and resources. We must use our technology responsibly but without fear, otherwise we might as well go back to the caves and bash our brains in with rocks.

]]> By: brij http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-4767 brij Sat, 01 May 2010 20:20:01 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-4767 You're suggesting putting a nuclear reactor into the atmosphere and using it for power? Ahhh, you mean like the atom bomb? That ended nicely didn't it... People think this is a really complex argument and that we need to think about the people who can't afford planes and who deserve to see the world through a tiny hole in a tin can so therefore make it all cheaper and more accessible and so many people like Mohan (I'm not attacking you because it is the majority and we mustn't forget that) 'enjoy' the feeling of flying. Maybe it was seeing the world from space and the air which created the disconnection and widened the distance we put between us and the rest of the world in the first place. We don't live 'on' the world, and the 'global environmental' isn't something we can wriggle out of whether its changing or not. Our environment will always surround us and we live in the earth, within an atmosphere with all living things. I don't want to sound pedantic and like a nature loving freak its simply the truth. It isn't the non-believing, capitalist, self-righteous pigs who will realise it first. People ALREADY know that its real. People are feeling the effects all over the world and until it happens to you its 'human nature' to remain ignorant but empathetic. Some of those privileged flyers felt the effects of natural disasters last month when the volcano disrupted the planes and it was an ironic flash of the truth that we can't control everything and that technology won't always be the answer. Don't criticise, be constructive and creative and COOL! ps. read this I quite enjoyed it... http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8626000/8626927.stm You’re suggesting putting a nuclear reactor into the atmosphere and using it for power? Ahhh, you mean like the atom bomb? That ended nicely didn’t it…

People think this is a really complex argument and that we need to think about the people who can’t afford planes and who deserve to see the world through a tiny hole in a tin can so therefore make it all cheaper and more accessible and so many people like Mohan (I’m not attacking you because it is the majority and we mustn’t forget that) ‘enjoy’ the feeling of flying.

Maybe it was seeing the world from space and the air which created the disconnection and widened the distance we put between us and the rest of the world in the first place. We don’t live ‘on’ the world, and the ‘global environmental’ isn’t something we can wriggle out of whether its changing or not. Our environment will always surround us and we live in the earth, within an atmosphere with all living things. I don’t want to sound pedantic and like a nature loving freak its simply the truth.

It isn’t the non-believing, capitalist, self-righteous pigs who will realise it first. People ALREADY know that its real. People are feeling the effects all over the world and until it happens to you its ‘human nature’ to remain ignorant but empathetic. Some of those privileged flyers felt the effects of natural disasters last month when the volcano disrupted the planes and it was an ironic flash of the truth that we can’t control everything and that technology won’t always be the answer. Don’t criticise, be constructive and creative and COOL!

ps. read this I quite enjoyed it…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8626000/8626927.stm

]]> By: Mo http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-4765 Mo Sat, 01 May 2010 14:03:32 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-4765 Only in table manners i hope! New Zealand by boat? :p What we need are airships with electric propeller engines. Could be powered by covering the lift-gas manifold with flexible Photo-Voltaic cells! Or use a small nuclear reactor like a nuclear submarine! Only in table manners i hope! New Zealand by boat? :p

What we need are airships with electric propeller engines. Could be powered by covering the lift-gas manifold with flexible Photo-Voltaic cells! Or use a small nuclear reactor like a nuclear submarine!

]]> By: Liam http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-4764 Liam Sat, 01 May 2010 10:51:49 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-4764 I'm not implying you are self-righteous Mohan, but we all know you are a pig ;) The world is there to be experienced, you are right. But flying isn't the only method of travel. Anyway, I think it's great that we are discussing things like this, and David's article makes really interesting reading. Nice one Dave! I’m not implying you are self-righteous Mohan, but we all know you are a pig ;)
The world is there to be experienced, you are right. But flying isn’t the only method of travel.

Anyway, I think it’s great that we are discussing things like this, and David’s article makes really interesting reading. Nice one Dave!

]]> By: Mo http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-4761 Mo Fri, 30 Apr 2010 20:32:49 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-4761 I'm not a non-believing self-righteous pig. I know Climate Change is real and i'd rather we'd not be plunged into chaos. I also like seeing the world and you can't pretend you don't either Liam... I’m not a non-believing self-righteous pig. I know Climate Change is real and i’d rather we’d not be plunged into chaos. I also like seeing the world and you can’t pretend you don’t either Liam…

]]> By: Liam http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-4760 Liam Fri, 30 Apr 2010 20:25:24 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-4760 Did anyone watch "The Tribe" on Channel 5 years ago? Sometimes I feel like I can't wait for the global climate meltdown. I can't wait for all the arrogant, non-believing, capitalist, self-righteous pigs to realise that Climate Change is REAL. I can't wait for the world to be plunged into irretrivable chaos. Then, sometimes I feel like we as Woodcrafters really can make a difference. But to do this, we need to work together... Did anyone watch “The Tribe” on Channel 5 years ago?

Sometimes I feel like I can’t wait for the global climate meltdown. I can’t wait for all the arrogant, non-believing, capitalist, self-righteous pigs to realise that Climate Change is REAL. I can’t wait for the world to be plunged into irretrivable chaos.

Then, sometimes I feel like we as Woodcrafters really can make a difference. But to do this, we need to work together…

]]> By: Mo http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-4759 Mo Fri, 30 Apr 2010 15:17:19 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-4759 Complete disregard? Actually i am a well informed, educated and able to make up my own mind. I understand possible consequences but often the flip-side is greatly overlooked in Woodcraft. Only through greater experience and knowledge and interaction with other peoples will we make peace with each other as a species and with our planet. Oh and btw, isn't it so easy to insult and flame from behind your anonymity? Complete disregard? Actually i am a well informed, educated and able to make up my own mind. I understand possible consequences but often the flip-side is greatly overlooked in Woodcraft. Only through greater experience and knowledge and interaction with other peoples will we make peace with each other as a species and with our planet.

Oh and btw, isn’t it so easy to insult and flame from behind your anonymity?

]]> By: Christy http://www.spanthatworld.com/aviation-and-climate-change/#comment-4758 Christy Fri, 30 Apr 2010 15:08:19 +0000 http://www.spanthatworld.com/?p=5032#comment-4758 Burned, Mohan. I agree with the sentiment that flying has brought very real benefits to people's quality of life and to global communications. It could be be argued that the ability to travel and be exposed to the vast diversity of cultures, landscapes and environments provides with a better appreciation of the lives of others and incredible diversity of our fragile planet. The problem is the cheap price of flying does not accurately reflect the future costs it incurs in the long run- in layman terms, the carbon emissions which damage our environment and our quality of life. Flying is undoutably one of our greatest achievements as a civilisation but carbon taxes need to be imposed so the cost of flying is representative of the true 'carbon cost' and people will try to use less carbon-intensive methods of transport. Sadly, we're a long way away from this so in the meantime we do the least harm by only flying when given no other choice and using carbon offsets when possible. It's a lot easier to insult someone anonymously, who happens to represent a widely-held opinion, than to be cordial and constructive and to consider actual solutions to our worlds problems. Burned, Mohan.

I agree with the sentiment that flying has brought very real benefits to people’s quality of life and to global communications. It could be be argued that the ability to travel and be exposed to the vast diversity of cultures, landscapes and environments provides with a better appreciation of the lives of others and incredible diversity of our fragile planet. The problem is the cheap price of flying does not accurately reflect the future costs it incurs in the long run- in layman terms, the carbon emissions which damage our environment and our quality of life. Flying is undoutably one of our greatest achievements as a civilisation but carbon taxes need to be imposed so the cost of flying is representative of the true ‘carbon cost’ and people will try to use less carbon-intensive methods of transport. Sadly, we’re a long way away from this so in the meantime we do the least harm by only flying when given no other choice and using carbon offsets when possible.

It’s a lot easier to insult someone anonymously, who happens to represent a widely-held opinion, than to be cordial and constructive and to consider actual solutions to our worlds problems.

]]>